How did immunologist Tetyana Obukhanych become antivax?

The Vaxxed bus is in Washington state and they took some time to interview the world’s only antivax immunologist, Tetyana Obukhanych.  She is interviewed by Polly Tommy.

Skeptical Raptor has already published a nice post about Tetyana, so you can read it to learn about her background.

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First, she discusses her qualifications and how she has a PhD.  She only worked in research labs and has no experience in medical clinics. She claims to have done some research at  Harvard but I am only aware of a post-doctoral lab assignment at Stanford University. She explains how she is a not a clinical immunologist, but is a research immunologist and used mice models to study the human immune system. She says vaccines were not mentioned in her studies except to talk briefly about Edward Jenner.

She claims that, at one point, she started seeing “things” that did not quite fit into theory. For example,  she noticed mice could be immune activated but they would not develop immunity to a pathogen, which told her that immune response does not necessarily equal immunity. At that point, she started paying attention to vaccine research, comparing immune response to efficacy. She believes some vaccines are only studied for immunogenicity and not efficacy.  When she went to get her green card, she looked closely at her own medical records. She recalls having measles as a child. She found out she had a MMR at age 1 and another one at age 5 but still got measles at age 12. This didn’t make sense to her. How could a person get measles after vaccination, she thought? She then realized she had been “indoctrinated” into believing vaccines work but they clearly do not.  She started also looking into safety and efficacy studies for flu vaccine and research showing that flu vaccines do not work. She says she occasionally tried to bring this up with the senior research scientists but would routinely be told vaccines work and be quiet. She also told a strange story about a department at Stanford where psychologists are charged with talking to parents of children with autism about vaccines. Tetyana found this odd because psychologist don’t know much about vaccines, except Marcella Piper-Terry. (Tetyana claims Marcella is a psychologist). Tetyana then decided she should be the one to talk to parents about vaccines, as an immunologist. So, she started meeting with parenting groups and it grew into her writing her self-published book.  Note: To my knowledge, Marcella, founder of vaxtruth dot org, an antivax website, is not a PhD in psychology. She currently travels the country with the Vaxxed bus and is listed, on her Linkedin page, as a “biomedical consultant.”

Next, Polly asked Tetyana what she thinks about inserts and ingredients. Her answer is that pharmacology is not the focus but the vaccine reactions and immune reactions. She believes vaccines cause long term health issues. She is also concerned with why we need to eradicate diseases, that we should look at childhood infections as have positive benefits. She claims that the life long immunity one gains from having childhood diseases is beneficial in many ways as certain viruses are associated with lower risk of certain cancers.

Her latest project is lecturing about how to keep children healthy without vaccines. She discusses a new website, called bbch dot community, that will be launching soon. Building Bridges in Children’s Health will help parents learn about vaccines and develop communication resources. The goal of the community is to educate about vaccine dangers, the benefits of childhood diseases, and how to manage if you are being bullied by a pediatrician or reported to CPS for your healthcare choices.

She also helps “educate doctors” so they can overcome their “indoctrination.” She does this at Physicians for Informed Consent. She and Polly fervently believe autism, allergies, epilepsy, asthma, SIDS and other issues are all caused by vaccines and doctors need to be “awake” to see this reality. She wants to see legislation passed at the state level so doctors will be free to practice medicine the way they see fit.

Polly asks Tetyana about the criticism that she, Tetyana, is not a vaccine expert. Her answer is that no one is a vaccine expert because no one is trained in vaccines. (I guess she has not met Dr Paul Offit or any other immunologist or epidemiologist who works with vaccines. Or a person with a public health degree who specializes in vaccines.) Tetyana’s theory is that people just don’t want to listen to her expertise. She also explains that she left academia because the focus was too much on sick people, not on the healthy immune system. She claims research grants all come from drug companies wanting to expand their markets.

My thoughts:

Tetyana seems sincere, in this interview. She seems like she believes what she has read. What confounds me is why she has chosen to cherry pick studies that back her point of view (vaccines cause autism, etc) rather than look at the whole body of science. She also makes some outrageous and false claims, such as pharmaceutical companies stopped paying attention to vaccine safety in 1986, after the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act of 1986  (NCVIA )was passed. She says that because pharmaceutical companies have no liability any more, for injuries, they don’t need to make safe vaccines. Apparently, she is completely unaware that you can sue vaccine makers, after you first go through the “vaccine court” system. That is outlined in section 300-21aa in NCVIA. Skeptical Raptor blog explains more about the legalities in this blog post.  She also seems unaware of all the ways vaccine safety is assured, through legislation and testing standards.

I also wonder why she does not understand that vaccines do not confer 100% immunity so it is not unheard of for a child, like herself, to get measles in a big outbreak.  If she did, indeed, have two MMRs as a child, she would theoretically have been 99% likely to be immune. If she did get measles, she was in the 1%. According to numerous records I read on the WHO website, measles is a problem in Ukraine and has been for years. So, it is not surprising that a vaccinated child could still get sick. Natural immunity also does not necessarily confer 100% immunity for life. As I often say, I had chicken pox twice in my childhood. It is well known you can get pertussis and tetanus more than once. Natural immunity lasting a lifetime is a myth.

Tetyana ends the interview with the idea that humans have survived for millennia without vaccines. Diseases only became a problem, she says, due to crowded conditions and unhealthy food and water. Now that we know how to eat well and clean our water, our bodies will handle infection just fine. The healthy body will “sail right through” without complications. This is a very naive manner of thinking that puts the blame for disease complications squarely on the shoulders of the parents, mostly the mother since most children have their mother in the primary caregiver role. If as many as 90% of pediatric flu deaths are unvaccinated, then this line of thinking says the deaths are the fault of the parents for not nourishing the children properly. I find this way of thinking abhorrent. Survivorship bias downplays real risk and real efforts to minimize or prevent them and distorts reality. It is also a form of deception, in my opinion, because parents are led to believe they can control the course of illness. It is like telling a veteran soldier that war is not bad because, hey, you survived.

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source

In conclusion, Tetyana buys into all the usual antivax tropes and has not used her formal education to her best advantage. She has cherry picked the science to show what she wants it to show, that vaccines are not perfect. This is a real shame. No, Tetyana, we are not ignoring you. We just know better than to believe your version of science.

Remember to always think for yourself. And don’t cherry pick!

 

Kathy

 

 

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176 thoughts on “How did immunologist Tetyana Obukhanych become antivax?

  1. Why is it that the pro-vax to the max brigade find it necessary to attempt ad hominem attacks – on the individual, not the claims – against anyone who seeks to question vaccines?

    Could it be because there is a lurking fear that their position is unfounded and a fear of the dissenter as in those who question religion, once literally burned at stakes, but now, when the religion is science-medicine, burned at metaphorical stakes?

    Surely in a civilized world people can make up their own minds to vaccinate or not and respect the decisions that others make.

    Let’s face it, China forced 99% vax rates and the US has gone a long way toward it but outbreaks still occur, because, there will never, ever, ever be 99% vax rates worldwide and that means, unless a nation seals its borders and allows no-one in or out there will always be exposure.

    Beyond the fact that herd immunity does not exist for vaccine-manufactured disease and doesn’t always exist for naturally acquired disease, the exposure factor means it matters not a whit if 10% or 30% are unvaccinated.

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    • I questioned vaccines, 14 years ago, when I had my first baby and I discovered that some people think vaccines are toxic. I carefully examined the ingredients with my toxicologist husband. I made friends with doctors and nurses, epidemiologist and other scientists, and I discovered that pretty much everything antivaxers claim is a lie or misleading because either they don’t understand the science or they mislead on purpose to sell their supplements, videos, etc.

      When you mention China and 99% vax rate, you are likely referring to the measles study shared on both greenmedinfo and natural news. I like that example and use it often. They both claim that China vaccinates 99% of citizens and they still have measles. They count on their fans not reading the actual study. Here it is.

      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3930734/

      What they found is 99.0% vax rate in Zhejiang province was not enough to stop measles because one dose is not enough. They also found that measles incidence is decreasing, thanks to rising immunization rate.

      Always verify your statements.

      If herd immunity does not exist, how is it that native rubella is gone from the entire Americas, cape to pole? Hint? Very high MMR vax rate.

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      • The Chinese example simply demonstrates that unless a nation seals its borders, since there is not and unlikely to be,99% vax rates worldwide, there will always be exposure so the mythical herd immunity is meaningless.

        Scarlet Fever also disappeared with no vaccines involved. Diseases have always been cyclical.

        The biggest factor in human life has been improved sanitation, hygiene and nutrition, which, where it happened, saw incidence and mortality levels plummet, long before vaccines.

        And these diseases were in steep decline in general, before vaccines.

        Can you please link the data showing the comparative health of fully, partially and non-vaccinated children? I don’t believe it exists, in which case, vaccines have not been thoroughly tested.

        Can you also link to the research from more recent times, studying the impact of vaccines on the brain, now that it is known the immune system and the brain are physically connected by lymphatics and so what is done to the immune system will impact the brain?

        Vaccine theory and methodology was invented in ignorance of this link.

        If your toxicologist husband had data studying the impact of the cocktail of toxins – I know it has been done singly, but I have never seen evidence of it studied in cocktail form, I would like to see it.

        Can you also link the studies looking at the combined effect of the neurotoxin, Aluminium which from my understanding has never been properly deemed safe, but believed to be safe for one vaccine, but where children often receive six, seven, up to 16 vaccinations at the one time?

        Sixteen times the basic dose might be a problem don’t you think?

        Most of those who question vaccines are parents who formerly believed the propaganda and vaccinated their kids and had them injured or dead because of it and so set out to do the research.

        those questioning vaccines are from the most highly educated segments of all societies. Ponder that.

        I don’t know any who sell dvd’s, they just want freedom of choice on how their children are to be poisoned, or not.

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      • Mexico has a 97% MMR vaccination rate

        http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.IMM.MEAS

        and has had 3 cases of measles since 2000

        http://apps.who.int/immunization_monitoring/globalsummary/countries?countrycriteria%5Bcountry%5D%5B%5D=MEX&commit=OK

        Aluminum salts in vaccines are safe

        http://www.chop.edu/centers-programs/vaccine-education-center/vaccine-ingredients/aluminum

        and we get more via our food or breastmilk or formula. Naturally.

        For the limit, you are likely confusing TPN limit for aluminum with vaccines. It is a common mistake, perpetuated greatly via antivax and “health” blogs

        https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm?fr=201.323

        TPN limit cannot be compared with vaccines, for obvious reasons.

        “Most of those who question vaccines are parents who formerly believed the propaganda and vaccinated their kids and had them injured or dead because of it and so set out to do the research.”

        I disagree. What happened is snake oil salesmen and women, like Andy Wakefield and Sherri Tenpenny and Joe Mercola, started sharing online their opinions about vaccines and linking to the products they and their friends sell to boost health in lieu of vaccines. They started cherry picking the research and making baseless claims about vaccines being more risky then beneficial. They perpetuated the claim that vaccines cause autism. Parents who are smart enough to ask questions but not smart enough to actually understand risk analysis or immunogy, started reading these claims and believing them. Now, we see parents concerned that anything bad that happens within years after a vaccine is the fault of the vaccine. We see people wanting to detox their children because a vaccine caused minor swelling and redness. They blame literally everything on vaccines because they don’t understand that autism and SIDS have always been here. It is out of control. The only recourse is mandating vaccines, which is what is happening all over the world. Today, France announced it will mandate the rest of the childhood immunization schedule. It had previously only mandated DTaP. Germany and Italy are doing same. Australia has “no jab no pay.” USA will see tighter legal restrictions on state vaccine mandates. This is the only way to fight pseudoscience, unfortunately.

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      • Measles is not a dangerous disease. No vaccine was ever needed. Incidence and mortality began to fall wherever sanitation, hygiene and nutrition was improved as happened with all other infectious diseases.

        Your problem is that there are too many of us still alive who know that the bullshit claimed for Measles and other minor childhood diseases, is, well, bullshit.

        You cannot say Aluminium salts in vaccines are safe because they have never, ever been tested. The placebo contains them so no placebo, no test.

        INGEST IS NOT INJECT. You science types seem poorly educated.

        You disagree because you have no idea. The movement to question vaccines began with parents who did as they were told, ended up with dead or damaged kids, and then did their research.

        The fact that medical professionals like Wakefield became involved was because of questions from parents.

        Parents are concerned. Vaccine theory and methodology was invented before it was known that the brain and immune system were physically connected. What you do to the immune system will impact the brain.

        That has never been tested. Aluminium accumulates, particularly in the brain. Children are sickly today. Epidemics of Autism, Behavioural and Learning Difficulties, and worse, Brain Cancer….of course parents are worried.

        I hope you can live with yourself when the damage done by vaccines can no longer be denied.

        The irony is that your position is a travesty of science and academia because prejudice and subjectivity turn you into a censor.

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      • Measles not dangerous? Wow. I am sure all the parents of children who got measles and then developed into mental retardation and were institutionalized for life would disagree. All the parents of kids who went deaf from measles would disagree. All the parents of kids who died from measles would disagree.

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      • Some people may fall for your propaganda, but you know, I had Measles, my siblings, cousins, friends all had Measles, my kids had measles, etc. my parents had Measles and no-one ended up mentally retarded or deaf.

        as doctors in the past recognised, poverty and poor sanitation, hygiene and nutrition made all diseases dangerous in ways they were not in developed countries from the early 20th century.

        Look at the graphs, plummeting long before vaccines.

        The parents of brain-damaged children after vaccination don’t agree with you.

        As the generations who were lucky enough to have these diseases in childhood die out, the immuno-compromised vaccinated will be in deep trouble as the pool for vaccine-induced disease grows.

        The few unvaccinated or minimally vaccinated may well be the saviours of humanity.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Propaganda is information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote or publicize a particular political cause or point of view. I am sharing sound science, backed by evidence, and not related to a political ideology at all.

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      • Science-medicine is mostly ideology.

        It is theoretical and it is like religion, there is dogma and theology which cannot be questioned.

        Vaccines is part of it. The delusion that the body can be reduced to the purely material or chemical is another. The fantasy that chemotherapy is effective medicine.

        If it is sound science why the tyranny of forcing vaccines?

        Liked by 1 person

      • Any system based on a set of beliefs is ideology. Science is based on the belief, delusion, that all can be reduced to the material and mechanical.

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      • Wrong. If science were based on evidence it would not hold the belief that all can and should be reduced to the material. Patently all cannot be reduced to the material, therefore the belief is erroneous.

        Ergo, the belief is not based on evidence. Thank you for proving my point.

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      • You have not known that science as we see it today is locked into a belief in materialism? That explains a lot.

        Science is most definitely a belief system and if it were based on evidence as you claim, why is its invention, Allopathic medicine, now one of the top killers, most of it from prescribed medication which, if it can get anything right, it should get that right, but it doesn’t because the human body is not purely material and cannot be treated like a machine.

        In fact, the dogma which drives modern science represents the greatest danger to humanity of any system and never more so than in the cult of medicine, of which vaccines are the new ‘snake oil.’

        https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/is-scientific-materialism-almost-certainly-false/

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      • You do not have to but that does not make you right by default. Science has become arrogant and hubris is dangerous. Arrogance prevents rational objective thought. Pride comes before a fall.

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      • Are you aware of the work of Professor Chris Exley, now being called a quack because he asks valid questions about the Aluminium in vaccines?

        Hardly objective science in that response by any stretch of imagination.

        https://www.hippocraticpost.com/infection-disease/aluminium-adjuvants-vaccines/

        And where is the research looking at the impact of vaccines on brain function, it should have been top priority, once it was found the brain and immune system are physically connected and textbooks had to be rewritten?

        https://news.virginia.edu/illimitable/discovery/theyll-have-rewrite-textbooks

        Or do vaccine textbooks, invented before this knowledge was known, remain exempt? If so, why?

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      • Really? How do you work that out? Good heavens you must write immediately to Keele University in the UK.

        Professor Chris Exley
        Professor in Bioinorganic Chemistry Keele University
        Honorary Professor, UHI Millennium Institute
        Group Leader – Bioinorganic Chemistry Laboratory at Keele

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      • You science acolytes do not see the irony of your gross subjectivity and prejudice do you?

        CMSRI seeks to gather research. But, because it does so questioning vaccines – hang on, isn’t science meant to be about questions??? Guess not, you reject any association with it. Bad science in anyone’s book.

        CMSRI has some pretty experienced, notable medical and scientific professionals on their board and Exley’s career, like the others, speaks for itself.

        Let’s hope the vax-pushers like yourself donate a percentage of your wealth to the reparations which will be demanded when the toxic toll of vaccines is finally known.

        People like you betray the very basis of good science and medicine, which probably still exist somewhere, even if those with intelligence and ethics end up on the CMSRI board.

        You just don’t get the fact that the public doesn’t swallow your prejudice and ignorance.

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      • An acolyte is a person assisting the celebrant in a religious service or procession. There is no religion being addressed on this blog.

        CMSRI has a clear agenda.

        Feel free to share with me any evidence you think might sway me to not vaccinate. Did you read my latest post?

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      • Yes, an acolyte is as you say and science has become a religion, driven and supported by acolytes like yourself, brainwashed by dogma and belief and devoid of ethics and integrity.

        My goal is not to seek to sway anyone not to vaccine. My goal is to have open discussion of the clear and present dangers before people make a decision, and accountability from science-medicine on the issue, along with freedom of choice for everyone.

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      • And you did not post any research data in response to my question as to what is being done now that science knows the brain and immune system are physically connected, which means vaccines impact the brain.

        Which means there is no research and the vax-max corporation keeps on poisoning our children and damaging their brains.

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      • You are joking? There is no ‘what-if’ about the fact that it is now known the brain and immune system are connected by lymphatics, something unknown and unimagined when vaccine theory and methodology were invented.

        If there is no research being done then science-medicine and its vaccine cult have become criminal in their behaviour.

        What a betrayal of the best of science and the best of medicine. What a betrayal of humanity and particularly our children.

        What disgraceful attitude to take.

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      • I find it bizarre that someone who relies on science cannot reach the conclusion that, if it is discovered that the brain and immune system are physically connected through lymphatics, and this, say the experts, means textbooks will have to be rewritten, that a priority would be, says sanity, vaccines which were invented before this link was known.

        If the brain and immune system are connected then if you meddle with the immune system using experimental materials and toxins, then surely this might impact the brain and you need to do the research to find out how?

        I don’t think there is any research because science-medicine does not want to know what all that Aluminium, Formaldehyde, animal, human and bird material might be doing to the brain.

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      • I think it is a great discovery. I am not changing my health recommendations until some research comes out showing that I should.

        I do not dwell in what-ifs. Science is about concrete evidence.

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      • If science is about concrete evidence then the fact that vaccine theory and methodology were invented before it was known the brain and immune system are physically connected, should have had the laboratories buzzing with research into the impact of this link.

        Without this vaccine theory is no more than snake oil based on outdated knowledge and dogma.

        You don’t have to change your health choices. Just don’t seek to inflict them on others.

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      • Since every scientist knows you cannot find what you are not looking for, one can assume in safety that science-medicine has not a scrap of understanding of the possible impact of vaccines on the brain because of the lymphatic connection.

        Given that vaccination on this count is an experiment with our babies and small children, one could consider this ignorance criminal.

        But, by all means show me the extensive research done in the past 18 months or so since the discovery was announced.

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      • Quote: One in six US children has a learning or behavior problem. One in ten has asthma. One in ten has ADHD. One in thirteen has a food allergy. One in fifty has autism. Thirty five hundred children a year die from Sudden Infant Death Syndrome. Seven hundred and fifty thousand children suffer from seizures.

        All of these problems can be traced to the toxic witches’ brew of vaccines, that recent evidence has shown to be contaminated with unsuspected chemical and biological agents. As our understanding of science gets better, we now understand that the vaccine program has been an unrestricted experiment in immuno-therapy on our children and they are suffering the consequences.

        http://bolenreport.com/five-year-moratorium-childhood-vaccines-white-house-petition/

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      • IDEA is only 40 years old and only recently fully implemented. When I was a child, if you were severely disabled you were in an institution. If you were slightly disabled, you were ignored, teased, and you failed school. It’s a good thing we have IDEA now. Children are getting the help they need, finally! There is no evidence whatsoever that all these stats indicate anything new. We used to diagnose 3-5% of children mentally retarded and now we diagnose 1-2% ASD and 1% intellectual disability. And we no longer institutionalize for life. This is good!

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      • Hm, I can think of some people who do not sell DVDs?

        Dr Walter Orenstein
        Dr Paul Offit
        Dr Frank De Stefano
        Dr Eve Switzer
        Dr. Elias Kass
        Dr. Jen Gunter
        Dr Vince Ianelli

        And a whole host of other provax doctors.

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      • Look thanks for your time but we have no common ground.

        Those who question vaccines doubt the machine can be stopped, unless something so ghastly happens it cannot be ignored. Swine Flu and Narcolepsy was pretty ghastly but not ghastly enough it seems.

        The goal of people like me is to force some ethics into science and medicine and to ensure proper studies are done, proving without a doubt that the claims about safety are true, and removing as much of the experimental and toxic material as possible.

        We also want to see less vaccines, given at older ages, always in single form and no experiments, medical fascism or tyranny.

        And we will get it. Either the vaccine industry will destroy itself through ignorance and arrogance and breathtaking hubris, or vaccines will be put where they should be – something chosen freely and used in moderation.

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      • Rational thinking uses reason to sift through logic, intuition, and all ways that a human being can perceive, to arrive at a sensible conclusion.

        The scientific belief that all can be reduced to the material is irrational. But science holds many irrational beliefs despite considering itself to be a rational system of enquiry.

        The capacity of the human mind to hold two conflicting beliefs at one and the same time has long been recognised.

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      • fact
        fakt/Submit
        noun
        a thing that is indisputably the case.
        “the most commonly known fact about hedgehogs is that they have fleas”
        synonyms: reality, actuality, certainty; More
        used in discussing the significance of something that is the case.
        noun: the fact that
        “the real problem facing them is the fact that their funds are being cut”
        a piece of information used as evidence or as part of a report or news article.
        synonyms: detail, piece of information, particular, item, specific, element, point, factor, feature, characteristic, ingredient, circumstance, aspect, facet; information
        “every fact was double-checked”

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      • And then there are Facts – i.e. information which suits a desired outcome. Information which ensures profit, professional prestige, or a job. Information which does not challenge anyone’s profits, prestige or position.

        As former editors of both The Lancet and The New England Journal of Medicine have said, much research is wrong, i.e. based on the above kind of ‘fact.’

        The work of Dr John Ioannidis found most of it to be wrong, i.e. based on the same sort of ‘fact.’

        Sadly, science-medicine cannot be relied upon to produce judgements based on real facts, but largely on ‘facts.’

        All the definitions in the dictionaries will not change that. Only science-medicine can remake itself.

        As it stands, science today is a system of enquiry, certainly in the medical field, which holds a belief and demands an outcome which supports it. Hence the power of the cult of vaccination.

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      • I am still waiting for your credible research rewriting vaccine textbooks since the discovery that the brain and immune system are physically connected and clearly, we are injecting Aluminium, a known neurotoxin, into our children’s brains?

        Surely that research would be a priority. You must know of it?

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      • So, you have not read the research which came out a couple of years ago showing the brain and immune system are physically connected via lymphatics in ways not known when vaccine theory and methodology were invented? You should as a vax pusher.

        Ergo, vaccines must impact the brain through this link so you are injecting not just the known neurotoxin Aluminium, but a host of other toxins and materials with outcomes yet unknown, animal, bird and human material, into the brains of children.

        One presumes the science-medical industry will fund the victims of early-onset Alzheimer’s who are likely to be the result of this insanity.

        Can you post me the research done or being done on this lymphatic connection and the impact of vaccines because of it? Does it exist?

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      • And, logic, reason, common sense suggest such an unknown link should be investigated in light of the known neurotoxins in vaccines and the toxic materials in general. Surely any decent human being wants to know how much Aluminium is getting to their baby’s brain?

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      • Quote:

        Other outstanding issues include:

        The most basic form of testing a drug – comparing those getting the drug with a placebo group who don’t – has never been done on the MMR vaccine.

        There are no long term studies to investigate the effects of getting multiple vaccinations.

        One reason the original research suggesting a link between gut bacteria and the brain was dismissed was because at the time no such connection was thought possible.

        The microbiome is now known to be extensively connected with brain development, the immune system and inflammation.

        Parents are, quite rightly, desperate to know the truth about the risk of vaccination, especially since the number recommended for children has increased so dramatically. The policy of asserting that all is well in the face of mounting evidence of issues that need addressing has not proved reassuring.

        They deserve better treatment especially since, if the critics worst fears are realised, the consequences will be catastrophic.

        http://anhinternational.org/2017/02/22/guest-feature-mmr-vaccine/

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      • 1. MMR has been around 50 years. Why do we need to conduct testing with a saline placebo now?

        2. Here is but one long-term study of multiple vaccines. Pubmed is your friend.
        https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15530702

        3. Vaccine benefits vastly outweigh risks. That is the point.

        4. Parents concerns have been heard. Vaccines have been studied in connection with allergies, asthma, SIDS, autism, epilepsy, and other health conditions. That a tiny percentage refuse to accept the medical evidence doesn’t mean there needs to be more research.

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      • Really? The MMR is exactly the same as when it started?

        I don’t think so. And it is 46 years not 50 and it has never been properly tested and its introduction sees the start of a timeline for disease epidemics in children, including Autism.

        Since vaccines have never been properly tested it is impossible to claim the benefits outweigh risks.

        Parents concerns have not been heard or we would not now see medical fascism where vaccines are forced on people.

        Surely if science had integrity there would always be a need for more research?

        Fact is, the toxins in vaccines have never been tested for the cocktail effect.

        The safety claims for toxins are only for the singular and not in combination and do not take into account that a child can have three, four or sixteen doses in one session.

        No comprehensive study has ever compared the health of fully, partially and non-vaccinated children.

        No placebo has ever been used because the fake placebo also contains Aluminium as an Adjuvant.

        Sorry, what medical evidence are you talking about? There is no real medical evidence, that is the point.

        This toxic experiment on our babies and children is using them as the labrats.

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      • Saline placebos? What quaint faith you have.

        “Placebo fraud rocks the very foundation of modern medical science; thousands of clinical trials invalidated

        “You know all those thousands of clinical trials conducted over the last few decades comparing pharmaceuticals to placebo pills? Well, it turns out all those studies must now be completely thrown out as utterly non-scientific. And why? Because the placebos used in the studies weren’t really placebos at all, rendering the studies scientifically invalid.”This is the conclusion from researchers at the University of California who published their findings in the October issue of the Annals of Internal Medicine. They reviewed 167 placebo-controlled trials published in peer-reviewed medical journals in 2008 and 2009 and found that 92 percent of those trials never even described the ingredients of their placebo pills.

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      • Roslyn: “The MMR is exactly the same as when it started?”

        Which one? It is different depending on the country, and date of introduction. The one used in Australia is very similar to the improved version introduced in the USA in 1978. It was improved by using a component that had been used in Europe for several years. The ones used in Russia, India, China, and Japan cannot be compared to what is presently used in Canada, USA, UK and Australia (which are all different, but similar).

        There is no “one” MMR. But still, they have all been tested thoroughly.

        I find it odd that you argue “testing” since you are a fan of homeopathy, which is literally nothing:
        http://anarchic-teapot.net/2015/03/roslyn-ross-defends-homeopathy/

        Also the “1 in 6” bit, is just the ratio of those who fall more than one standard deviation below the mean of a standard normalized bell curve. Your claim is just as valid as saying all kids in Garrison County are above average. It is a high school level statistics class fail.

        This is why I usually ignore you on ViolentMetaphors, and now here (same Gish Gallop, changing of subject and moving of goal posts). Unless you can produce the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers that the present MMR used in Australia or the USA cause more harm than measles, mumps or rubella… I will still ignore you. But you have failed to do that for several years, so I don’t expect you to start now.

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      • Scarlet Fever disappeared with no vaccines. And your point was?

        You will find many of the so-called eradicated diseases still exist, they just have new names.

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      • Neither is Polio or Smallpox. There you go. Or Measles, Mumps, Chicken Pox etc. Neither has cervical or ovarian Cancer. Remind me again how effective vaccines are.

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      • Polio and rubella are gone from all the americas, thanks to vaccines. Native measles is gone from north america. Chicken pox is very rare these days. Mumps is very rare these days. Thanks to HPV vaccine, hpv rates are down.

        vaccines work

        Like

      • Scarlet Fever disappeared, no vaccine. Polio is not gone, just renamed.

        Neither is Measles gone, nor Chicken Pox or Mumps and these minor childhood diseases now break out in adults where they can be serious.

        Diminishing temporarily a few minor childhood diseases is worth the skyrocketing rates of Cancer in children and the young, particularly Brain Cancer; Autism, Auto-Immune Diseases, Behavioural and Learning difficulties because of the toxic nature of vaccines is a price worth paying? That is what you are saying?

        Thank God and and my kids had all those diseases. Someone will be needed to care for the early onset Alzheimer generations vaccines are creating.

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      • Of course there is a vaccine in development. Mad scientists and mad medicine.
        Scarlet Fever may have diminished for a time, but diseases are cyclical. Then again, Smallpox, Polio or any of the diseases for which vaccines are used have not gone either.

        Why bother with their toxic gift?

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      • Human beings are more sickly than ever before and children more so. the levels of chronic and serious disease are horrific. That is not something to ignore as it developed in the max-vax age.

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      • I completely disagree. Infants are surviving infancy more than ever. Women are surviving childbirth more than ever. Children are surviving childhood more than ever. The devastating injuries vaccine preventable and other diseases are now mostly prevented by vaccines and medicines. We are identifying more disorders and diseases now, but they are not new. They have always been here. There is no evidence that people are sicker now. Americans tend to be more obese, but not more sickly.

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      • More infants survive because eventually stupid doctors learned to wash their hands and because of improved sanitation, hygiene and nutrition.

        However, despite them surviving we now have more serious and chronic illness in everyone and worse in children than before, following the max-vax timeline of the past 40 years or so.

        Women are surviving childbirth, despite the meddling of doctors, because fewer have rickets because of good nutrition, and because sanitation and hygiene levels are better.

        When you talk about devastating injuries from minor childhood diseases for which children are now vaccinated, I am guessing you are not 45 because those over this age had these diseases without devastating injury, as did their parents, grandparents etc., and living in First World countries, no-one died or was devastated.

        Modern medicine is inventing more diseases and creating them and no doubt vaccines play a part in that.

        Brain Cancer is now the biggest Cancer killer of children and the young. Autism, Allergies, Behavioural and Learning Difficulties, Diabetes, Coeliac Disease, to name just some, are at epidemic levels in ways never seen before. Rates of Cancer in children are higher than ever before and higher in everyone, having risen from one in more than ten in 1900 to one in two today.

        Whatever modern medicine does it does not create good health.

        And Americans are more sickly than most because they eat food which contains toxins banned long ago in the rest of the developed nations, and their environment is awash with chemicals, their food over-processed and they are over-vaccinated and over-medicated.

        Most of the world’s pharmaceuticals are consumed by Americans including 80% of painkillers. That alone says health is poor and can only get poorer.

        Too many vaccines, too soon, too often, too experimental, too many antibiotics, too many C-sections, too many medications and one thing is certain, we will not have to worry about world overpopulation.

        Children today it is already indicated, will not live as long as their parents and grandparents.

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      • I never said it did but lies, damned lies and statistics happen because comparisons of infant, child and maternal mortality are made against times when doctors did not wash their hands.

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      • Americans do have an obesity issue. That is likely why they use more drugs than many humans. But, many of those drugs are used by seniors. Do you want old people to stop using drugs and just die? How about premies? Do you want them to die? Is that your goal? Everyone should just stop using drugs and if you die, oh well?

        I say eat healthy, exercise, wash your hands, and vaccinate. Drink clean water. Avoid soda and junk food. These are my keys to health and how I raise my kids.

        Experts think children today may not live as long as their great grandparents because of obesity, not vaccines. My children are fully vaccinated and healthy, not obese.

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      • I have no problem with medications but there are too many prescribed, particularly to the aged, and their toxic nature makes good health impossible.

        There are many ways to retain and restore health without resorting to such toxic cocktails.

        I am glad your children are healthy. You might bear in mind that most parents who now opt to limit and reject vaccines do so because they were once like you and they believed in vaccination, until it injured or killed a child or children.

        And the medical nazis now want to force them to risk their remaining children with vaccines.

        Like

      • As I have pointed out, I do understand that some antivaxers are now antivax because they blame their children’s health issues on vaccines. Doctors need to do a better job talking with these parents, so they can be talked off the irrational cliff.

        Like

      • You seem unable to comprehend the fact that people don’t blame vaccines, they know vaccines were the cause.

        You also seem unaware that most of those who now question and opt to limit or reject vaccines, previously did vaccinate their children, until harm was done, and they are amongst the most highly educated group in society. Ergo, they can and do, do the research. They saw the effects of vaccines on a child or children, and we all know our children best, and they did the research and understood what happened.

        This fantasy that such parents are foolish, misguided or ignorant is delusional.

        Another thing I am now seeing at least in my country, where we don’t quite have fascist vaccination as Americans do, but we are on the way, are young women having babies in their Twenties and refusing to vaccinate them because of their own experiences with vaccines, Gardasil in particular.

        They are of course fortunate to have retained fertility given that Gardasil has brought premature menopause to many young teenage girls.

        A rational parent sees a sick or damaged child and does the research into why it might be so. A rational and responsible parent does not give a toss what doctors or scientists say – their goal is to do what is best for their child.

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      • Let’s take one famous example, Brian Hooker. Claims for nearly 20 years that MMR caused his son’s autism. Got his day in court, was proven wrong due to early medical records. Case in point – irrational thinking is behind many antivax claims.

        Another one, Hanna Robinson, claims HPV vax injury. Every doc and every medical test find nothing. She claims she is sterile. She is referred to psych, mother and daughter refuse. Has a healthy baby a few months ago. She had conversion disorder. It was all in her head.

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      • Two claims disproven and many more compensated with the court stating that the vaccination caused the Autism.

        It is accepted, grudgingly no doubt, by science-medicine that the Swine Flu vaccine caused tens of thousands of cases of narcolepsy.

        you cannot have it both ways.

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      • Please refrain from referring to anyone who is not a member of a Nazi party or a white supremacist as a nazi. It is offensive and ignorant. Do it again and I will send that comment to spam.

        Like

      • You might like to look at the growing rate of infant mortality following the introduction of vaccines for pregnant women. The US has some of the worst rates in the world, and that includes the Third World.

        Like

      • Pertussis vaccine, during pregnancy, is very safe and does not cause an increase in infant mortality

        Safety
        DeSilva M, Vazquez-Benitez G, Nordin JD, et al. Maternal Tdap vaccination and risk of infant morbidity. Vaccine. 2017;35(29):3655–60.
        McMillan M, Clarke M, Parrella A, Fell DB, Amirthalingam G, Marshall HS. Safety of tetanus, diphtheria, and pertussis vaccination during pregnancy: A systematic review. Obstet Gynecol. 2017;129(3):560–73.
        DeSilva M, Vazquez-Benitez G, Nordin JD, et al. Tdap vaccination during pregnancy and microcephaly and other structural birth defects in offspring. JAMA. 2016;316(17):1823–5.
        Sukumaran L, McCarthy NL, Kharbanda EO, et al. Safety of tetanus toxoid, reduced diphtheria toxoid, and acellular pertussis and influenza vaccinations in pregnancy. Obstet Gynecol. 2015;126(5):1069–74.
        Sukumaran L, McCarthy NL, Kharbanda EO, et al. Association of Tdap vaccination with acute events and adverse birth outcomes among pregnant women with prior tetanus-containing immunizations. JAMA. 2015;314(15):1581–7.
        Morgan JL, Baggari SR, McIntire DD, Sheffield JS. Pregnancy outcomes after antepartum tetanus, diphtheria, and acellular pertussis vaccination. Obstet Gynecol. 2015;125(6):1433–8.
        Czeizel AE, Rockenbauer M. Tetanus toxoid and congenital abnormalities. Int J Gynecol Obstet. 1999;64:253–8.
        Donegan K, King B, Bryan P. Safety of pertussis vaccination in pregnant women in UK: Observational study. BMJ. 2014;349:g4219.
        Hardy-Fairbanks AJ, Pan SJ, Decker MD, et al. Immune responses in infants whose mothers received Tdap vaccine during pregnancy. Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2013;32:1257-60.
        Kharbanda EO, Vazquez-Benitez G, Lipkind HS, et al. Evaluation of the Association of Maternal Pertussis Vaccination With Obstetric Events and Birth Outcomes. JAMA. 2014;312(18):1897–1904.
        Kharbanda EO, Vazquez-Benitez G, Lipkind H, et al. Receipt of pertussis vaccine during pregnancy across 7 Vaccine Safety Datalink Sites. Prev Med. 2014;67:316–9.
        Liang J. Overview of Tdap use during pregnancy: unpublished and recent data. Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP), Atlanta, GA; February 23, 2011.
        Moro P. Safety of Tdap vaccine during pregnancy: enhanced surveillance in VAERS presented to the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP), Atlanta, GA; February 26, 2014.
        Munoz FM, Bond NH, Maccato M, et al. Safety and immunogenicity of tetanus diphtheria and acellular pertussis (Tdap) immunization during pregnancy in mothers and infants: A randomized clinical trial. JAMA. 2014;311(17):1760–9.
        Rasmussen S. Safety of maternal Tdap vaccination for mother and fetus presented to the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP), Atlanta, GA; June 22, 2011.
        Schofield FD, Tucker VM, Westbrook GR. Neonatal tetanus in New Guinea. Effect of active immunization in pregnancy. Br Med J. 1961;2:785–9.
        Silveria CM, Caceres VM, Dutra MG, Lopes-Camelo J, Castilla EE. Safety of tetanus toxoid in pregnant women: a hospital-based case-control study of congenital anomalies. Bull World Health Organ. 1995;73:605–8.
        Shakib JH, Korgenski K, Sheng X, Varner MW, Pavia AT, Byington CL. Tetanus, diphtheria, acellular pertussis vaccine during pregnancy: pregnancy and infant health outcomes. J Pediat. 2013; 163(5):1422–26.
        Zheteyeva YA, Moro PL, Tepper NK, et al. Adverse event reports after tetanus toxoid, reduced diphtheria toxoid, and acellular pertussis vaccines in pregnant women . Am J Obstet Gynecol. 2012;207(1):59.e1–7.

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      • As someone who had babies after the horrors of Thalidomide, I shake my head at the cavalier and irresponsible approach of medicine today in injecting ANYTHING into a pregnant woman and her developing foetus.

        Because vaxxing pregnant women is so new, neither you nor anyone else will know what it has done to the foetus for at least another thirty or forty years.

        The above claims are mere propaganda.

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      • One brave scientist stood her ground to save Americans from that disaster. Then again, tens of thousands more deformed babies were born because the doctor who raised the alarm was mocked, ridiculed, ignored, as the pro-vaxxers do to people today.

        In fact, Thalidomide only happened because those clever scientists dismissed deformity in one breed or rabbit as an anomaly, as they blithely dismiss negative impacts of vaccines today.

        The damage done by vaccines is more subtle, but disastrous all the same.

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      • Quote: And what about all those medical doctors who keep assuring us vaccines are perfectly safe and are key to keeping us healthy and free from infectious disease? No, they are not “experts,” as they would like us to believe. Doctors learned practically nothing about vaccines (other than the vaccine schedule) in medical school, and so they do not necessarily know what they’re talking about.

        https://idsent.wordpress.com/2017/05/31/the-mainstream-vaccine-paradigm-is-horridly-wrong/

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      • Yes, but that doesn’t mean they have any understanding of what is in vaccines nor how they are designed to trick the immune system.

        You have in the US, I see, a growing group of nurses refusing such forced vaccination. Might be a reason for that.

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      • Ros, your opinions are putting a drain your country’s public health system:
        http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/patients-lacking-vaccination-spend-on-average-nearly-week-in-hospital/news-story/1a04add4738309c9ae6b503c30fd45d9

        From that article:

        ANTI-VAXERS and vaccination slackers suffering from preventable diseases are clogging ­Australia’s hospitals and putting a massive burden on the public health purse.
        People with vaccine-­preventable diseases spent a total of 338,686 days in hospital across the nation in 2015-16, new figures reveal.

        and:

        The average length of stay in hospital for a vaccine-preventable disease was 6.7 days per patient, according to The Australian Institute of Health and Welfare’s new Healthy Communities report into ­Potentially Preventable Hospitalisations in 2015-16.
        NSW Health figures estimate the average stay in hospital for one night is between $1100 and $1500, making the impost on the public purse for vaccine-preventable diseases up to $508 million a year.

        Wow. Half a billion Australian dollars a year treating preventable diseases! What a waste.

        Ros, why do you prefer sick kids over healthy kids? Because not only do you believe that they should skip safe vaccines and actually get very sick, but you believe in treating them with sugar pills (homeopathy). You really are not a nice person.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Ros: “And what about all those medical doctors who keep assuring us vaccines are perfectly safe and are key to keeping us healthy and free from infectious disease?”

        Ah, it is the Nirvana Fallacy! That quote is very silly, because nothing is “perfectly safe.”

        The issue is relative risk. Measles is very dangerous, the MMR vaccine is much safer. But, Ros does not care about accuracy in the use of the English language.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Aluminum as adjuvant. Fishy, fishy business. The Cochrane review of it is disheartening (‘in spite of good evidence, we recommend no further studies be done’. Really?!) End of story. I’m only planning on giving my child the most important vaccines based on the actual research. Evaluating pro’s and con’s.
        I’m a Biotech major (soon to be MD) with a concentration in Mollecular Biology. I have the time and the knowledge to go through all the papers. Most parents don’t.
        Both pro and antivaxxers are using science they know little about to try to reach a conclusion that cannot be made: one, because science is science and is always changing as more knowledge is gained and two, the kind of experiments that could give a real robust proof for or against vaccines would be completely unethical and/or ridiculously long (for the chronical effects).

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      • Antivaxers cherry pick and provaxers do not. You will find that if you spend more tim on this issue. If you are becoming a doctor, then you will be able to understand issues of validity and reliability, which antivaxers also do not understand.

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      • PetroC: “Aluminum as adjuvant. Fishy, fishy business.”

        Well, the fishy fishy business seems to be coming from the “researchers” who literally edited the data on their paper:
        http://retractionwatch.com/2017/10/09/journal-retract-paper-called-anti-vaccine-pseudoscience/

        I hope English is not your first language, because you will not pass the qualifying tests to get into an American medical school. I assume you are more fluent in your country’s language. Also, a good scientist knows that actual proof are not blatant assertions without evidence, which is what you did. What you need to do now is provide the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers done on humans (not mice! and not petri dishes!) that any vaccine on the present American pediatric schedule causes more harm than the disease. I am specifying the USA because that is where we live, you are welcome to use your country’s vaccines… but the paper needs to be in English and free to read from PubMed.

        Also, the very fishy fishy studies that keep getting retracted are often funded by the Dwoskin Family Foundation. So make sure they did not pay for the research.

        Liked by 1 person

  2. What a novelty a saline placebo would be in vaccine studies.

    “But what is a placebo, really? One definition describes a placebo as “an innocuous or inert medication; given as a pacifier or to the control group in experiments on the efficacy of a drug.” The operative term here is the word inert. But in four of the five trials, Gardasil placebos contained a substance called an adjuvant, “a substance which enhances the body’s immune response to an antigen.” According to one of the trial publications, most of the Gardasil trial placebos actually contained an “amorphous aluminium hydroxyphosphate sulfate adjuvant… and was visually indistinguishable from vaccine.” So although the majority of the placebo treatments in the Gardasil trials did not include Gardasil VLPs, they were by no means inert. In control populations representing nearly 95% of all “placebo” recipients, the study subjects received a formulation that actually included an immunologically active (and potentially harmful) aluminum adjuvant.

    “One of the five trials, however, was different. In this trial, the only one that examined a younger population of nine-to-fifteen year olds, the placebo recipients did not receive an aluminum adjuvant. By contrast, and according to most of the FDA documentation, the nearly 600 control subjects in this trial received a formulation most commonly described as either a “non-alum placebo” or a “saline placebo.” The safety results of this trial deserve special notice, since it’s the only trial that compared Gardasil to a solution that could reasonably be described as “inert.”

    “But even that assumption would overstate the case. Although the “saline placebo” did contain water and sodium chloride (ordinary table salt), the FDA was incorrect to suggest that there were no other active ingredients. According to the published description of this trial’s methods, “The placebo used in this study contained identical components to those in the vaccine, with the exception of HPV L1 VLPs and aluminum adjuvant, in a total carrier volume of 0.5 mL.” Formulations like this, which are made up of everything in the vaccine except its immunologically active components, are sometimes called a “carrier solution.” The correct description of the placebo as a “carrier solution” rather than a “saline placebo” was provided only once in the CBER review, buried in a table on page 301. Nowhere in either the CBER review or the published account of the trial can one find any description of this placebo’s ingredients.

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  3. There are over 100 auto-immune disorders I’ve found that even some nurses who administer the vaccines are unaware to be considered auto-immune disorders (and the list is still growing which tells us that we still don’t know enough about the immune system and all it’s functions to make the wild claim that vaccines are safe to give to young child who are still developing.) but the nurses were all aware that vaccines cannot be given to children with auto-immune disorders. (How do we even know if there is a disorder or not if it’s not even fully developed? How can we be certain that a vaccine didn’t compromise an immune system that caused an auto-immune disorder only discovered after the immune system was fully developed, long after the first vaccine was even given and multiple vaccines since? How can they be so adamantly called safe and effective on infants if it is considered immoral to do any field studies? With ever-changing environments how can the production of the vaccines stay accurate enough, with optimal results every time, as the scientific factors are always changing? ) One of the package inserts even warns that adverse reactions may occur if administered to patients without optimal iron levels (I have yet to meet someone who was told to get their child’s blood tested, or test anything, before a vaccine. Parents are asked simple questions to their knowledge but they are not treated seriously enough by the professionals).

    Even if vaccines worked, the education (or lack there of) behind them is preventing them from being as effective and safe as they say they should or could be. I could go on but the bottom line is that they MUST be studied more and we all need to be more cautious with them. We all WANT it to be as simple as we’re told it is but that’s why we are easily manipulated and threatened with biological terrorism (my words) because we want to be protected so badly that they use our fears against us and brainwash us into thinking they’ve done the work for us and their main priority is keeping us all safe. Our generation is used to quick fixes and others doing things for us and it just doesn’t work for our health (yet 😉 and by accepting that they are already there what incentive is there to make vaccines safer or more effective when people naively think they’re already there? It would just costs more money and more research means more time before they can go to market and since there is no threat of liability why piss the investors off? I get that it’s a catch 22 but people have the right to know and not participate.

    I will give you small sample: The NIH or National Institute of Health funds very ‘trusted’ research but it’s bias by the fact that it is a business fueled by investors and in order for a research project to get their funding they have to prove a direction that will “…maximize investments in investigator-initiated biomedical research…” That’s the first line in their funding policies and it specifically says “…discoveries that advance understanding of human health and disease.” They are smart people with smart lawyers who chose their published words carefully. ‘Understanding’ human health and disease is very different than bettering, preventing or even just advancing by itself. (I may be over-analyzing but I may not, which is why everyone should have the right to make their own decisions). http://www.nigms.nih.gov/research/pages/policies.aspx

    The diseases are terrible, sometimes deadly and can have long-term repercussions and a form of prevention may be a possibility but vaccine injures are also terrible, sometimes deadly and can have long-term repercussions but 100%, without a doubt preventable. which one a child is most susceptible to would depend on everything from genes and lifestyle to hygiene and accessibility to healthy food and, worst case scenario, hospitals. Natural protection against most diseases is possible but it can be a lot of work and sometimes require a whole family lifestyle change and some willpower. People who choose not to vaccinate should also be made aware of the challenges of protection without the help of vaccines and pharmaceuticals. The problem right now is that those who choose to go through all of this work and put a ton of effort into being healthy to naturally build their immune systems are not applauded and respected but instead shamed and ostracized and accused of making someone else’s child sick because they didn’t inject their perfectly healthy child with some pharmaceutical. A perfectly healthy child will be blamed for another child getting sick and yet the sick child’s family will go back to living a simple and unhealthy lifestyle (knowingly or not) with nothing but love and support. Someone can smoke in the same house as a child who eats sugar and processed foods every day but if that child goes to the hospital with measles, things that made them susceptible to getting sick would not be an issue and they would go right back to living that same lifestyle but the healthy unvaccinated kid at that child’s school will be demonized (with no evidence that they were even a carrier) before the diet, lifestyle, hygiene, genes, effectiveness of a vaccine or health choices of the family will ever even be considered.

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  4. Pingback: Who Is Tetyana Obukhanych? – VAXOPEDIA

  5. What is all the scaremongering about in relation to measles mumps whooping cough etc.as a child of the 60’s everybody got them.. few days in bed no big deal .. the people who are maintaining they were deadly are not speaking from experience just from misfed information and it’s working.. what we didn’t see back then is the raging cancer epidemic we have now and all the autoimmune sickness..autism adhd etc all new and man made..there is nothing more scientific than our bodies and there is nobody who knows better than the person dealing with the experience..anecdotal and much more reliable than papers written by people who are looking for a certain result that will fall in line with next new fandango vaccine or medicine..common sense alone would tell me that injecting foreign material into our bodies has to alter the balance and cause problems..the scientific machine that is our body is still not fully understood or its complexities fully known by the ‘scientists and researchers’ so why are people so in awe of these ‘scientist/researchers’ when all they do is experiment..people need to give credit to their own brains and intelligence and LISTEN to the people HAVING AND WITNESSING the experience instead of referring to publications limited studies from people who have a financial agenda..its no coincidence that the pharmaceutical industry is a trillion $ industry..mainly on the backs of peoples blind faith and brain washing..

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    • As a child of the 60s, you probably also did not wear a bike helmet or use a safety belt. There are many things that kids used to do but not all survived. Just because you did does not mean everyone did. I hate to break it to you but, in the 60s, tens of thousands of American kids a year suffered from diseases we now prevent.

      Autism is not new. I would encourage you to read my post “autism is not an epidemic” which you can find in the index. Autism is not new. It has been here all along.

      The supplement, chiro, naturopathy, homeopathy, and herbal industries are multi billion dollar a year industries. Does making money mean something is bad?

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  6. Pingback: Roslyn Ross – uncaring callous bitch | All about Anti-Vaxxers

  7. Woo! Roslyn really hit em hard!

    The other side sound like such predictive robots. So dull.

    And look at that! There is a “pingback” which slanders her!

    I don’t think there is any clearer sign of defeat than that.

    “In debate slander becomes the tool of the loser.” – Socrates

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  8. And also I learned nothing from this article except that stay at home moms who have nothing to do are very poor at writing as well as debating.

    (Cat noises) Dont lose a nail, honey!

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      • They’re not and that’s my point?

        Thanks for agreeing with me?

        I’m still on the fence about this issue but so far both sides tend to resort to insults except it is far more severe -and uncalled for – when it comes from the pro vaccination camps.

        There are several questions I have but they seem to get ignored because it seems not everyone has all the facts. They just have talking points given from sources which support their bias.

        And as for insults go: calling someone an uncaring callous bitch is pretty excessive and unprofessional.

        The whole reason this issue is hot is because parents are losing their children to what seems apparently to be related to vaccine injections.

        So in that case of concern for the safety of children does not exist and this means people are uncaring and callous?

        Equally the concern from vaccination camps is founded in a similar fashion, but with regards to outbreaks which are often pinned on anti vaccination folk.

        There is the problem which is if the evidence pans out to say these concerns from vaccination camps is unfounded in light of the actual facts, then they need to start directing their concerns elsewhere.

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      • SIDS rate and infant mortality child mortality rates are at all time lows. Vaccines cut the risk of SIDS by 50%. There is no question that SIDS is not caused by vaccines.

        What else would you like to know? You have asked no questions. Ask away. I will be happy to answer. But, putting me down certainly doesn’t make me think you are interested in learning.

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      • Obviously you did not read the blog post. The insult level was homeopathic.

        Of course, Roslyn is a big fan of homeopathy, Which has been described as “The One Quackery To Rule Them All”, being basically water mixed with sugar pills.

        You speak of facts, and that is often the crux of my questions. I ask for them, and I often do not get any. Would you like to fix that by providing the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers that any vaccine on the present American pediatric schedule causes more harm than the diseases?

        Liked by 1 person

  9. As someone on the fence my concern is a few things:

    1. Their necessity which is questionable.

    2. Their harm to children.

    3. The rights of an individual being impeded upon thanks to fear mongering from the mass media.

    I will take the time myself to look at those PubMED studies which you are praise like the holy grail when I get a computer setup with internet (I’m on a phone) because typing and reading on here is a bit taxing.

    And how do you know homeopathy and alternatives to be “quackery”? Have you tried them yourself and can attest to their results first hand? Do you just smugly walk into a room full of healthy and happy people who say it works for them and roll your eyes? You watch a lot of House?

    I’m not saying it isn’t sound, but people have had a right to practice alternatives and don’t need to be slammed for it.

    I would think older folk would be more mature and open minded but they more often prove the opposite.

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    • PubMed is just an index of journals from around the planet. Some of the stuff is questionable, which is why you need to actually read the full papers. The fact that you are unaware of that is enlightening.

      “And how do you know homeopathy and alternatives to be “quackery””

      I see you are also unfamiliar with homeopathy. It was thought up in Germany in the late 1700s with several odd made up “laws.” Anyone who has taken and passed high school chemistry would know that it is bogus:
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy

      Now if you wish to try it yourself, and do not want to pay the high price that Boiron charges for what are essentially sugar sprinkles used to decorate cakes, then please avail yourself to this:

      Recipe for Nat Mur or Natrum Mur or Natrium Mur or Natrum muriaticum:

      1) Take ½ teaspoon of sea salt and dissolve into 1 cup of distilled water in a bottle.

      2) Shake well.

      3) This is a 1C solution (ratio 1/100).

      4) Take ½ teaspoon of the 1C solution and put it a bottle with 1 cup of distilled water, throw out the 1C solution.

      5) Shake well.

      6) This is a 2C solution (ratio 1/10000).

      7) Take ½ teaspoon of the 2C solution and put it a bottle with 1 cup of distilled water, throw out the 2C solution.

      8) Shake well.

      9) This is a 3C solution (ratio 1/1000000).

      10) Take ½ teaspoon of the 3C solution and put it a bottle with 1 cup of distilled water, throw out the 3C solution.

      11) Shake well.

      12) This is a 4C solution (ratio 1/100000000).

      13) Take ½ teaspoon of the 4C solution and put it a bottle with 1 cup of distilled water, throw out the 4C solution.

      14) Shake well.

      15) This is a 5C solution (ratio 1/10000000000).

      16) Take ½ teaspoon of the 5C solution and put it a bottle with 1 cup of distilled water, throw out the 5C solution.

      17) Shake well.

      18) This is a 6C solution (ratio 1/1000000000000).

      19) Take ½ teaspoon of the 6C solution and put it a bottle with 1 cup of distilled water, throw out the 6C solution.

      20) Shake well.

      21) This is a 7C solution (ratio 1/100000000000000).

      22) Take ½ teaspoon of the 7C solution and put it a bottle with 1 cup of distilled water, throw out the 7C solution.

      23) Shake well.

      24) This is an 8C solution (ratio 1/10000000000000000).

      25) Take ½ teaspoon of the 8C solution and put it a bottle with 1 cup of distilled water, throw out the 8C solution.

      26) Shake well.

      27) This is a 9C solution (ratio 1/1000000000000000000).

      28) Take ½ teaspoon of the 9C solution and put it a bottle with 1 cup of distilled water, throw out the 9C solution.

      29) Shake well.

      30) This is a 10C solution (ratio 1/100000000000000000000).

      31) Take ½ teaspoon of the 10C solution and put it a bottle with 1 cup of distilled water, throw out the 10C solution.

      32) Shake well.

      33) This is a 11C solution (ratio 1/10000000000000000000000).

      34) Take ½ teaspoon of the 11C solution and put it a bottle with 1 cup of distilled water, throw out the 11C solution.

      35) Shake well.

      36) This is a 12C solution (ratio 1/1000000000000000000000000).

      37) Take ½ teaspoon of the 12C solution and put it a bottle with 1 cup of distilled water, throw out the 12C solution.

      38) Shake well.

      39) This is a 13C solution (ratio 1/100000000000000000000000000).

      40) Take ½ teaspoon of the 13C solution and put it a bottle with 1 cup of distilled water, throw out the 13C solution.

      41) Shake well.

      42) This is a 14C solution (ratio 1/10000000000000000000000000000).

      43) Take ½ teaspoon of the 14C solution and put it a bottle with 1 cup of distilled water, throw out the 14C solution.

      44) Shake well.

      45) This is a 15C solution (ratio 1/1000000000000000000000000000000).

      46) Take ½ teaspoon of the 15C solution and put it a bottle with 1 cup of distilled water, throw out the 15C solution.

      47) Shake well.

      48) This is a 16C solution (ratio 1/100000000000000000000000000000000).

      49) Take ½ teaspoon of the 16C solution and put it a bottle with 1 cup of distilled water, throw out the 16C solution.

      50) Shake well.

      51) This is a 17C solution (ratio 1/10000000000000000000000000000000000).

      52) Take ½ teaspoon of the 17C solution and put it a bottle with 1 cup of distilled water, throw out the 17C solution.

      53) Shake well.

      54) This is an 18C solution (ratio 1/1000000000000000000000000000000000000).

      55) Take ½ teaspoon of the 18C solution and put it a bottle with 1 cup of distilled water, throw out the 18C solution.

      56) Shake well.

      57) This is a 19C solution (ratio 1/100000000000000000000000000000000000000).

      58) Take ½ teaspoon of the 19C solution and put it a bottle with 1 cup of distilled water, throw out the 19C solution.

      59) Shake well.

      60) This is a 20C solution (ratio 1/10000000000000000000000000000000000000000).

      61) Take ½ teaspoon of the 20C solution and put it a bottle with 1 cup of distilled water, throw out the 20C solution.

      62) Shake well.

      63) This is a 21C solution (ratio 1 in 10^42 or 1/1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000).

      64) Take ½ teaspoon of the 21C solution and put it a bottle with 1 cup of distilled water, throw out the 21C solution.

      65) Shake well.

      66) This is a 22C solution (ratio 1 in 10^44 or 1/100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000).

      67) Take ½ teaspoon of the 22C solution and put it a bottle with 1 cup of distilled water, throw out the 22C solution.

      68) Shake well.

      69) This is a 23C solution (ratio 1 in 10^46 or 1/10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000).

      70) Take ½ teaspoon of the 23C solution and put it a bottle with 1 cup of distilled water, throw out the 23C solution.

      71) Shake well.

      72) This is a 24C solution (ratio 1 in 10^48 or 1/1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000).

      73) Take ½ teaspoon of the 24C solution and put it a bottle with 1 cup of distilled water, throw out the 24C solution.

      74) Shake well.

      75) This is a 25C solution (ratio 1 in 10^50 or 1/100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000).

      76) Take ½ teaspoon of the 25C solution and put it a bottle with 1 cup of distilled water, throw out the 25C solution.

      77) Shake well.

      78) This is a 26C solution (ratio 1 in 10^52 or 1/10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000).

      79) Take ½ teaspoon of the 26C solution and put it a bottle with 1 cup of distilled water, throw out the 26C solution.

      80) Shake well.

      81) This is a 27C solution (ratio 1 in 10^54 or 1/1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000).
      (the zeros are running off of the page!)

      82) Take ½ teaspoon of the 27C solution and put it a bottle with 1 cup of distilled water, throw out the 27C solution.

      83) Shake well.

      84) This is a 28C solution (ratio 1 in 10^56 or 1/100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000).

      85) Take ½ teaspoon of the 28C solution and put it a bottle with 1 cup of distilled water, throw out the 28C solution.

      86) Shake well.

      87) This is a 29C solution (ratio 1 in 10^58 or 1/10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000).

      88) Take ½ teaspoon of the 29C solution and put it a bottle with 1 cup of distilled water, throw out the 29C solution.

      89) Shake well.

      90) This is a 30C solution (ratio 1 in 10^60 or 1/1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000).

      And then you are done! To make the pills, go to baking center of your grocery store and get some plain cake decorating sprinkles. You can try dropping some of the solution on the sprinkles, or just set the bottle next to the solution for it to absorb the energy (which is the typical method used for over the counter homeopathic remedies).

      You can make up other remedies by knowing what the mother tincture is… For instance “Nux Vomica” (or Nux Vom) is from the Nux Vomica plant which contains the poison strychnine, Nux Sulph uses sulpher, and the stuff advertised on the radio for colds, Oscillococcinum is from duck bits.

      Like

    • Vaccines are necessary because they have helped us cut the rate of infectious disease to almost nil. Every chapter of the pink book will give you stats.

      https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/index.html

      Vaccines very rarely harm anyone. if you take the number of vaccines given in USA in last 30 years (5 billion) and the number of injury awards compensated (5500) and divide awards by # vaccines given, you get injury risk. 0.000011%. Literally, 99.9999% of vaccinated Americans are just fine. Measles, on the other hand, has a 30% injury rate.

      This is why my children and I are fully vaccinated.

      There are over 1800 studies of homeopathy and not one shows it to be more than a placebo. There is not one study showing it works. That is how I know it is quackery.

      I am not sure why people are not open minded. Certainly, I am very open minded. I will read any evidence you post. However, you have to actually make an argument and post some evidence. Which you have not done.

      Like

  10. And on another note: this entire argument from you guys here is pretty much founded on an appeal to authority logic.

    I mean, if you think authorities can never be wrong well… okay.

    To be fair facts have been provided here, but you guys are deliberately ignoring it.

    And if those studies are like the one some guy shared elsewhere (i think it WAS pubmed) well… it actually showed the opposite of what it’s conclusion was.

    Well I’d rather use my phone to listen to music for now than point out the silliness of that study.

    Makes me think they are desperate to keep their foot in the door…

    Like

  11. Man. You guys are putting me to sleep.

    How many brains do you have to feed on a day to keep such a sublevel state of consciousness?

    Zzzz

    Anyway, good luck in the world. Hope the poster of this blog is in good standing health still and didn’t mind my remark with much aggression or annoyance earlier – seriously.

    Peace.

    Like

  12. “How many brains do you have to feed on a day to keep such a sublevel state of consciousness?”

    Please tell us why insults are a valid substitute for the requested data. You seem to think that anyone who asks for real evidence is a zombie, but you do not seem to anything about an index of scientific medical literature nor that homeopathy is literally nothing.

    To clarify I ask for PubMed indexed studies to prohibit the normal influx of videos and random websites from those with random qualifications. I am asking for actual factual data, which is apparently beyond your comprehension.

    Like

  13. Okay.

    If you’re going to talk about scientific medical literature then you could definitely listen to Dr. Tenpenny who references everything in her lecture from official statements from medical literature?

    I would share that lecture as a youtube video but since it has no value to you (for whatever reason) then I won’t bother. I especially don’t want to have to go over it and share all the official statements nor why it is still relevant since again this is a phone and it is a chore to type on here. Sorry if that sounds like an excuse, but when the circumstances permit I will more carefully look at the facts (honestly!).

    I would also ask you to check another site which also uses official statistics and data, but again it isn’t relevant here; even though again it uses official statistics and references to medical literature and peer reviewed studies.

    Tetyana herself also references medical literature, but again it isn’t important.

    Again, I’m on the fence. Bear that in mind.

    It would be reasonable to address the issue with the assumption you could be wrong. I am always considering this – even now.

    With that said, why would you even ask for references to anything if you were already sure you were right? Aren’t you really expressing you could be wrong – or is it that you’re sure you have the answer to what would be shared?

    Like

  14. Okay secondary problem with phone is that I did not even get several replies until revisting.

    You guys have a very aggressive tone. I realize I made some remarks, but that is essentially the forefront of the vaccination camp: to make several crude remarks to individuals who question vaccines.

    So really what do you expect to get back?

    Like

    • So asking for actual factual scientific evidence is “aggressive”? Wow. Please post the comment and cut/paste the exact comment where I have made a “crude remark.” I do not understand why asking for PubMed indexed studies to support your contentions is “crude.” Or was it my recipe for homeopathic Nat Mur? How was that crude?

      You are obviously easily triggered, and have never had to endure an oral exam, defend a thesis or present a technical presentation to a hostile company group. Please understand that if you are going to make statements on a medically scientific subject, you will be challenged to defend those statements with actual verifiable scientific evidence by qualified scientists. That is perfectly normal when you work in science (or engineering like I did). It is no place for snowflakes.

      Responding with insults shows you have no actual factual evidence. And that is both sad and boring.

      Like

  15. Im talking about the articles and responses in general against people who question vaccines. They are met constantly with serious hostility and those responses are only going to get hostile responses back – typically.

    Snowflakes are nice. They fall gently and are numerous.

    Boring? …

    Again, you realize that the reason this issue exists today even still is because children suddenly get development problems, autism, serious neurological complications, even die, after a routine vaccination?

    I mean you tell as many people as you want that it isn’t true but to many “the proof is in the pudding.”.

    So I take it you agree with Dr Offit that vaccines are so safe it is okay to inject as many as 100000 in one setting?

    I realize that statement was made to convince everyone that the science is settled, but still. I wonder if he actually believes that?

    Like

    • Snowflakes tend to melt when they come under the heat of scrutiny. You accused me of being crude, but failed to come up with direct quotes. All I have been doing is asking for evidence to support your claims.

      “Again, you realize that the reason this issue exists today even still is because children suddenly get development problems, autism, serious neurological complications, even die, after a routine vaccination? ”

      And yet you have not produced any PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers to support that notion. Unfortunately correlation does not prove causation. But here is something that is providing actual evidence and help, and it is serious “proof in the pudding”: https://sparkforautism.org/portal/page/faqs/

      There is a difference in “agreeing” with Dr. Offit, versus actually understanding the concept he was trying to convey. It was meant to be a counter to the logically flawed claim by Roslyn and friends that diseases like measles, mumps, Hib, hepatitis, pertussis, etc are safer than the vaccines. It was about the shear volume of antigens someone encounters in the environment, versus the very very very few in vaccines.

      Now, please provide those PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers that any vaccine on the present American pediatric schedule causes more harm than the disease.

      Like

    • Many of the articles listed are by Vinu Arumugham. He is a computer engineer (works for Cisco), not a medical researcher (he even says so in his BMJ comment you linked to, which was not an actual article). He is hung up on vaccines and allergies.

      Those who read Respectful Insolence are very familiar with him:
      https://respectfulinsolence.com/2017/02/02/antivaccinationists-try-to-show-vaccines-are-dirty-but-really-show-that-they-are-amazingly-free-from-contamination/

      In the future please stick to PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers. That means no engineers, lawyers, finance professors, geologists, journalist, computer scientists, etc. Also make sure that they are actual studies, not comments to journal papers. Some examples (research publications from the CDC Vaccine Safety Datalink):

      Pediatrics. 2001 Dec;108(6):E112
      Childhood vaccinations, vaccination timing, and risk of type 1 diabetes mellitus.

      Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2002 Jun;21(6):568-9.
      Lack of association between receipt of conjugate haemophilus influenzae type B vaccine (HbOC) in infancy and risk of type 1 (juvenile onset) diabetes: long term follow-up of the HbOC efficacy trial cohort.

      Pediatrics. 2003 Oct;112(4):815-20.
      Risk of anaphylaxis after vaccination of children and adolescents.

      Pediatrics. 2007 Nov;120(5):e1269-77.
      Is childhood vaccination associated with asthma? A meta-analysis of observational studies.

      Vaccine. 2009 Aug 6;27(36):4912-6.
      Risk of medically attended local reactions following diphtheria toxoid containing vaccines in adolescents and young adults: a Vaccine Safety Datalink study.

      Vaccine. 2010 Jun 7;28(25):4169-74.
      Multiple vaccinations and the risk of medically attended fever.

      Like

      • vaccinesworkblog,

        My son was diagnosed with multiple life-threatening food allergies and asthma at ~1 year old.

        At ~5, he received four vaccine shots in one sitting, developed anaphylaxis, spent the night in the ICU. Now these vaccines are contraindicated and he has no protection from these vaccine preventable diseases.

        Our doctors did not know what caused it nor did they have a cure. I had no option but to research the matter myself (what would you have done in my position?). I am an electronics engineer with no formal training in medicine or immunology.

        In engineering, finding a good solution involves determining root cause by understanding the mechanism of failure.

        It became quickly obvious that food protein contaminated vaccines cause the food allergy epidemic. Continuing the investigation, it does not take long to realize that ALL non-target injected proteins can be dangerous and must be carefully studied before use.

        Hope that explains the “strange hobby”.

        Like

      • I would urge you to leave the immunology research to the immunologists. Vaccines did not cause your son’s allergies. He relies on herd immunity so you should be supportive of vaccines, not demonizing them with your unfounded ideas.

        The best research into food allergies is lately showing that late introduction is part of the problem. Allergists are beginning to help children desensitize from food allergies by giving them controlled tiny doses, much like they do with allergy shots. And pediatricians are recommending not waiting too late to introduce solids.

        Like

    • Go study validity and reliability and then reread your research list. You will find anything with Shaw in the title is automatically not valid. His work is shoddy. Anything funded by Dwoskin has too many COIs to be valid. And then you will find that one study saying A does validate A when dozens or hundreds of studies A is not a thing. Got it? Cherry picking does not an argument make.

      Vaccines do not cause autism. Autism is not new. It has always been here.

      Like

    • So, I am going to assume I am conversing with Vinu. Having just read a few of the links on your blog and having googled you, I see why I have not heard of you before. Are you even affiliated with a university? Have a phd? Are you just writing out of your home? I don’t see much validity in your arguments at all. Sorry. Not buying.

      Like

      • “PhD, University”

        I like PhDs that tell the truth, like below:

        Drs. Pulendran and Ahmed of the Emory Vaccine Center write⁠:

        “Despite their success, one of the great iro-nies of vaccinology is that the vast majority of vaccines have been developed empirically, with little or no understanding of the immunological mechanisms by which they induce protective immunity. However, the failure to develop vaccines against global pandemics such as infection with human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) despite decades of effort has underscored the need to understand the immunological mechanisms by which vaccines confer protective immunity.”

        Since vaccinologists are themselves ignorant of vaccine mechanisms, how can we expect epidemiologists to understand the mechanisms? So most epidemiological studies ignore mechanism of adverse event causation. If you ignore mechanism, you cannot design the study with appropriate controls. So the results of such epidemiological studies have to be discarded due to confounding.

        “dozens or hundreds of studies”
        So, as detailed above, it is not the QUANTITY of studies but the QUALITY of the studies that matters.

        Like

      • Vinu is a common visitor to the Respectful Insolence blog. I posted a link to one of the articles where he made several appearances, but WordPress ate my comment. It was from Feb. 2, 2017 and titled “I love it when an antivax “study” meant to show how “dirty” vaccines are backfires so spectacularly”

        Vinu’s name shows up over a hundred times. Have fun.

        Liked by 1 person

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